In this eye-opening discussion, we explore the complex dynamics of dominance and submission in relationships, challenging popular misconceptions promoted by the "red pill" community. We delve into:
The misunderstanding of female sexuality and relationship preferences
The difference between arousal patterns and daily life expectations
The importance of having a vision and purpose in attracting a partner
How to approach dating with honesty and efficiency
The role of ambition and status in attraction
Strategies for building a strong, synergistic relationship
The truth about "pickup artist" techniques and why they fail
Research findings on marital satisfaction and partner preferences
The concept of tactical honesty in dating and relationships
Ideas for creating a family culture that supports healthy partnerships
Join us as we unpack these crucial topics and provide practical advice for building meaningful, lasting relationships.
Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the urban monoculture will not admit that men and women are different. And then it's like, then explain trans people.
And they're like, oh, what I meant is men and women are fundamentally two totally different things, and you can easily tell which one you are just by how you perceive reality . You know, you're not allowed to admit it in terms of partner dynamics or anything like that. But then the urban monoculture cited so holistically was a feminist movement that a anti feminist bent has twisted the truth that women prefer subservient positions when they're in a relationship with a male to women want a man To like, tell them to shut up and get in the kitchen.
I'd be like, Hey, you get your bitch ass back in the kitchen and make me some pie.
Andrew Tate: I am the commander of this house. Be quiet. Cook.
They're like, Oh, so I just need to be like, that's what dominance is, right?
Malcolm Collins: Dumb asshole. Have you ever seen like a pickup artist in like real life?
So there is a, a, a bad point of data that a [00:01:00] lot of red pill men get, or a lot of like really sexually active men get which is, Slave women, I'll call them.
So
Oh, yes, okay
Malcolm Collins: Do not confuse what arouses a woman with what she wants from her daily life. Alright? I am sure, if you are a guy, and you are watching this, right, there are things on your computer
Tamura, I miss me something. My computer's hard drive. I need you to dump it in the bathtub and fry it. All done. Please rest in peace, Satoru.
Malcolm Collins: as a man, there are many things that may arouse you that you did not choose to have arouse you, right? You don't want those things that arouse you to be part of your daily life at work. Or among your friend group or you know, in the way that you're raising your kids.
Would you like to know more?
Malcolm Collins: [00:02:00] Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be talking about Dominance and submissiveness as it relates to gender relationships in males and females and where Groups like the pickup artist and red pill community now keep in mind These are not homogenous communities in terms of their viewpoints But I would say many of the prevailing ideas within these communities got these concepts wrong Which led to them making very big mistakes in terms of how they were engaging with their partners, which You Ultimately led to unproductive, unhappy relationships that broke apart.
Absolutely.
Malcolm Collins: Now, I'm going to read a quote, , a friend of mine wrote this sentence he said there's a Bernian view that this creates an invisible ledger between men and women, stereotypically, where a woman can exchange sex for care and resources.
And when he says Bernian, I was looking up, well, what's, what's Bernianism, right? And so this is a quote on what Bernianism is. The [00:03:00] unit of social intercourse is called a transaction. If two or more people encounter each other, sooner or later, one of them will speak or give some other indication of acknowledging the presence of others.
This is called the transactional stimulus. Another person will say or do something which is in some way related to the stimulus. And that is called the transactional response. The problem with this thesis, and you see this across communities, they're like, okay, Women exchange sexual access for resources and protection.
Right, they're framed as the gatekeepers of sex.
Malcolm Collins: They're, they're framed as the gatekeepers of sex in relationships. And this framing is fundamentally wrong because it sees men and women as sociologically, Like, in terms of their world perspectives and the way that they process reality and the environment around them as pretty much exactly equal, except that women, and I know they don't, they don't realize that this is what they're doing, but this is functionally what, what, what the cause of making this [00:04:00] assumption does, except that women are less interested in sex than men.
And therefore are able to be sexual gatekeepers. However, and I'm just talking all of the, like, like, why women would be sexually less interested in them. And we don't need to get into all the evolution or theory here right now. I'm just pointing out that this is the way that they see it. And it creates a misunderstanding because it isn't just this one domain where women's perspectives on sexuality and the way that they relate to relationships is systemically different from the way males relate to relationships.
So we're going to get into some statistics on this, but broadly speaking. How do I, how do I word this inoffensively? Um, It is not a trade among people who are psychologically the same in terms of how they relate to reality.
Whereas women are often looking for somebody who I don't want to say like a worthy master, but like a, a, a person who they respect and see as above them and who they see as [00:05:00] trying to achieve something meaningful in the world that they can contribute to. A good horse
to
Malcolm Collins: hitch your wagon to. Right. But this is very different from the way that men often see women as relating to dominance.
Yeah. Well, and that's, and I think that's why you see men investing in things like fancy cars and preening by going to the gym and getting these muscles because they think that if they can show, like, I have the Rolex watch and I have the Maserati therefore she will think that I am resource rich and that is it.
Like, it's just, it, it boils things down to a level of simplicity. That's pretty absurd. Whereas really what you're trying to say is women aren't looking for like Gold coins there, the typical woman, unless she's a gold digger and literally looking for gold coins and kind of hoping that you'll die soon, or at least that she can kind of live a separate life and not be bothered by you.
Then she's really looking [00:06:00] for I guess it's, it's kind of like the give a man a fish versus teach a man a fish. Like she wants that, that source, that constant source of wealth and success in life. And that is by partnering yourself to someone who's a true leader. Who, if you live your life with them will yield the security and meaning that you're looking for in your life.
I think women want to, and to a great extent, men to everyone, most people want to be able to hitch themselves to a worthy cause. People find this through faith, through brand affiliation, through employers, but also through partners and women. Looking for that in male partners more than they're looking for gold coins.
Malcolm Collins: But this is, I think, where, where, where people get it wrong was concepts like hypergamy or something like that. They're like, well, women want men who are above them in terms of competence and social status and everything like that. And it's like, Okay, first, both men and women typically target partners. There is a great study on this that we're going to go into that shows that men [00:07:00] actually target partners who are above them in terms of status at an equal amount that women target potential partners that are above them in status. It's just that women get those partners more frequently. But secondarily, Why are women doing this and why are men doing this are two different reasons Women aren't doing it as some sort of like Machiavellian play they're doing it because they want to live their lives in service of something They believe that matters and they often now obviously there's differences in women.
There's differences in men You know, some men are born male male attracted people are born with a variety of fetishes and arousal patterns and everything like that Right i'm not But I'm saying that predominantly the way that female sexuality works, it is much more of a and, and the way that longterm relationship structures have worked historically, I want to help my partner become a big deal and achieve their goals.
Here. I would note a cultural technology. That's been very good. At [00:08:00] keeping women, marrying men and having lots of kids is to completely separate the domains in which women work in the domains in which men work. So that from the perspective of a woman, A man can always be higher than her in the domain in which he focuses a great example of this would be the Jewish heredity communities where men spend all day studying and women are in charge of both. Secular education. I E they have to learn about the real world instead of the studying theology.
Like the men do. I'm making a living for the family and raising children and people can be like, wow, that's putting a ton of work on the women. Why are women okay with this? , and in part it's because they are trying to support a man in doing something they see as genuinely worthwhile, which is dedicating himself to a life of theological study.
Yeah, well, and be, be affiliated with them. I think if we were to try to. Would it, would it be fair to frame this in more male terms to [00:09:00] ask a male, if you are a mercenary in an army and some greater military leader comes up and is taking on mercenaries, wouldn't you want to join his band of warriors and not be on, you know, the band you're on?
And that's, I think what female hypergamy is like, imagine.
Malcolm Collins: No, I think that's a misunderstanding of it because that implies that there isn't like a vested relationship. Which you don't
think that military bands have vested relationships with each other. But the way
Malcolm Collins: you are wording it implies that a mercenary would do that, and most mercenaries wouldn't do that.
And most women wouldn't do that. And that's the point. I don't know. No,
here's the thing, though. And I think this is a really important point is that this whole red pillar thing, they just think that it's all about showing that you have resources and then maintaining frame. You know, being this tough guy and, you know, go in the kitchen, make me a sandwich woman, et cetera.
Right. Like being kind of misogynistic and like being like, Ooh, I'm so tough and proud. And I think that there are [00:10:00] also male and female military leaders that are like that, that are like, Oh, I'm going to maintain frame. I'm going to be really tough. I'm going to be really mean. And they don't realize a way to put it as good or a leader.
Leaders like an abusive leader. There are amazing military leaders. And what, what the real good military leaders and what men will ditch an existing band to join is a military leader who has a vision, who will sacrifice themselves in the name of their team, who will, you know, you, you see this throughout military history, those people who are on the front lines, who are writing, you know, in, in the very first charge.
At the front, putting themselves on the line, these, these, this is the type of man also that women are looking for. It's not the go in the kitchen to make a sandwich.
Just say, hey woman, you, you shut your mouth and make babies.
It's a man who has a vision who yes, absolutely is dominant, but dominant because he is natural superiority [00:11:00] and is willing to put. himself in front of everything.
An example that Simone gave me after we recorded. This was in the movie gladiator. ,
Would you rather follow the, main character Maximus? As a man going into battle, or would you rather follow communists? , it's common. It's clearly Axe dominant in a way. And I see that many red pillars when they try to act dominant, act dominant in the way that come at us, acts dominant to his subordinates. Instead of in the way that Maximus acts dominant to his importance.
And obviously you wouldn't want to choose to follow communist if you could choose between the two. So you can look at somebody like Andrew Tate, who constantly needs to talk down about his subordinates. Talk down about the women in his life who serve under him. That's very much a communist thing to do. He believes that he is bolstering his own public image and looks better through degrading and talking down [00:12:00] about the people who have dedicated their lives to serving him.
Whereas if you were looking at somebody like Maximus, you would never see him do that. He would never talk down about the people serving him. , he sees it as an honor. That these people would spend their lives serving him. It's a completely different way of relating to your subordinates.
And I think that this communist way of acting dominant, fundamentally belies an internal insecurity and lack of confidence in yourself, which is intensely unattractive to women.
When you feel you need to use performative dominance. Towards the people who are making sacrifices
to serve your mission.
It doesn't make people think, oh, that's an extra dominant guy. It makes people think. Oh, that's the guy who's compensating because he doesn't feel dominant enough. So he needs to constantly signal it to people in his environment. Which makes them look. Like the antithesis of dominance. And if you don't believe [00:13:00] this, Andrew Tate comma, this comparison in terms of the type of dominance he exudes, I am going to play a clip of Andrew Tate, and it is just exactly what communists would say. If he was reborn in modern times.
, and it also is exactly the way comment it's looked upon his subordinates, the way that Andrew Tates looks upon the women who have chosen to spend their lives, supporting him.
Andrew Tate: I guarantee you don't walk around your house with a sword because you're not a commander. I'm a commander. You know, like when you command the troops into battle, so I walk around my house with a sword and I make threats like old school threats. It's like I will run you through.
I'm that guy who does whatever he wants.
If you're unhappy with it, if you're unhappy with waiting for me to light a cigar, then leave the channel. I don't give a fuck about you. You're a peasant. You're a peon. You're a brookie. I do as I please.
I've analyzed the entire earth, all of it,
so I like women. [00:14:00] But females,
are barely sentient. Even the good ones. In fact, especially the good ones. And the point is, when I say barely sentient, is that the female's entire life process from head to toe she never really thinks for herself.
My four wives are sitting there. They've seen on the news. There's a new deadly contagion. I pick up my sword. I am the commander of this house. I decide if there's a contagion, I decide what I do. Be quiet. Cook.
You got your sword. Your wife starts talking. You're like, shut up. She's got a sword.
Malcolm Collins: I think that this is really important. And the key thing that's missed is that people in these communities think the key angle of dominance that they need to demonstrate to a woman is to the woman instead of to society. The woman is not looking for a man. Who dominates her necessarily, she is looking for a man [00:15:00] that dominates society so that she can choose to follow that person.
And I think that with your money analogy, you made a really good point here in terms of the type of women that you attract. If you're using one of these strategies, it is not that there are no women out there who literally view life as a, I give you sexual access. You give me money. They're out there.
Have, you know, like long nails. They've got a look to them. They've got a, you know what I'm talking about, right? Like they look kind of like trashy looking.
There are even non trashy women looking women who absolutely do the sex for resources thing,
Malcolm Collins: it's a pervasive view as well. But, but these women are not.
Positive relationship models, either for you or them within a modern context. So we've explained this in other videos, but it's worth just briefly explaining here why you never want to get in a relationship with one of these people. So why, why they should never want to get in a relationship with you for a lot of these women are like, oh, this is a [00:16:00] great strategy.
You know, I can get, I'm not that employable right now. I can't earn that much money. I think I can marry a guy that's got tons of money. But then what happens? Is the guy because he sees this as an exchange. She fundamentally doesn't respect you. He likely doesn't want you carrying his jeans. He's using you for sex.
Right. And so you get 30, you hit the wall, you whatever, and he exchanges you for a younger model because there wasn't like, like the teamwork, the, what you added to him was never part of the puzzle in this relationship, right? Well, and
sometimes kids are involved. I think what happens a lot is that. The, this happens, but children are also produced, you know, so after they're empty nesters or even just when the mother is older.
The mother is then subject to divorce. And then, you know, things get messy, but I think the other problem is, and from a men's perspective whether or not this is a woman who acts trashy or a man who acts trashier or looks trashier, it looks like a gold digger or not like the people who are attracted to [00:17:00] this idea of, Oh, I would just like to marry someone and be a trophy partner.
These are people who are inherently more lazy because these days being a you know, unless you have a really big family that you're managing or you're managing your partner's business for them, which is not usually the case in these scenarios the partner's not really doing anything, you know, laundry machines don't make it hard.
Like, you know, basically there's not enough work in a household with fewer than two children to really make that happen. Like, unless you're doing some kind of crazy elite Polgar style education to make that a full time job that's like worthy of doing. So that means that the people who are attracted to this stay at home trophy partner status are inherently lazy, which means also that once these people get complacent in their position within marriage.
They're probably also going to violate the essential, like, [00:18:00] probably unwritten element of the relationship contract, which is that you're supposed to remain hot. These people then get complacent and let themselves go because they're inherently lazy because they came into this in the first place, thinking this was their free ride in life.
They didn't want to work. They didn't want to go to work. They didn't want to get a job. So of course they're not going to continue to like work out and keep themselves up in many cases. So
Malcolm Collins: it's just not really good for anyone. For something bigger than themselves and bigger than you, right? Like it's not like a comfort.
Yeah. Yeah. You because of you like nobody wants to live their life In service to another human being, right? Like that, that would be pretty a pathetic life for most people, right? Like they are serving you because of what you are trying to achieve. And that can be something domestic. Like it could be that what you and your partner are trying to achieve is a better life for your kids.
Right? And that can be a fantastic and rich relationship. But if you think they are serving for your gratification, especially if part of your self image is based on your degradation of the woman, it's [00:19:00] not gonna work out. And, and the extent to which women actually approach, like super high quality women approach relationships with this mindset, I think would surprise people who maybe don't talk to women as much.
But I know two instances, one that's very close to us. I mean, Simone, I'll see if you, if the recognition in your eyes comes out. I already know
who you're talking about. Okay,
Malcolm Collins: Where the woman who is, Better at business and harder working than the man intentionally puts the man as CEO of everything.
And you might be thinking we're talking about us because that is true of us to an extent. Simone definitely is harder working than me, but you put
me as the person running for office.
Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. I guess. Yeah. We switched it up a bit more than this other couple, but yeah, they, so they put the, the, the man is the CEO of everything.
And I remember I went to this woman one day and I was like, Why do you always put this man at the head of everything when, you know, everything really relies on you, you know, you, you are the key person in everything. And she goes, well, because I want to be [00:20:00] married to the most powerful man in the room.
You know, because I want that, that is what I want from a husband. I want the husband to be the top dog and he is a good person and he deserves it and he never treats me in any way other than perfectly. Let's talk about dream
life, right?
Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, but right. I feel like that's what I got with you to an extent.
Um, uh, Well, it's a little different for us. We can talk about the dynamic later, maybe in the episode, but it's not a dream wife. Exactly. I know, like a lot of Stanford MBA type women who do this mindset like, like even for my class, people who I'm less close with I've seen this mindset and I think that, again, this is like the average female biological coding in terms of milking maximum satisfaction from life.
Well, it's a fun, it's a fun twist on the dynamic of like, well, if you can't necessarily find out of the box, that perfect dominant leader that you want to hitch your wagon to, then. Then just [00:21:00] make it. It's a version of the Pygmalion relationship. Like if, well, if I can't, I can't find it, I'm going to build it.
if I can't support it, then I guess I'm gonna steal it.
And I really think that the best relationships are built, that you don't get the perfect partner out of the box. You ideally find. the right potential. When you're very young and you hone each other over time, you raise each other and you create each other into the very
Malcolm Collins: hard to make relationships work if they start when you're older.
Yeah, well, and you could still do it. But I still think that even if you start when older, you still have to hone each other into the right partners for each other and also better people in general. And if you don't do that, Then you're not going to end up in a good relationship. And most people aren't getting into these relationships at all because they can't find a partner who's willing to change or who's honest about being willing to change.
They aren't willing to invest in that partner. They aren't willing to change themselves or they literally just expect someone to be perfect out of the box, which is delusional.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but it's [00:22:00] also interesting to me how this misperception came about. Because the urban monoculture will not admit that men and women are different.
It's like, men and women want exactly the same things at all times, and like, anyone who's like, functionally, like, cognitively aware and isn't just brainwashed in the extreme is like, but obviously there's cognitive differences between men and women. And, and this is why, even within the urban monoculture, where they're like, well, men and women are exactly the same, they think exactly the same, they have exactly the same preferences and perceptions, and then it's like, then explain trans people.
And they're like, oh, what I meant is men and women are fundamentally two totally different things, and you can easily tell which one you are just by how you perceive reality and your, and your preferences and, and, and, and predilections. And I'm like, There's a contradiction there, right? This could be seen as a pro trans message here because I'm saying there actually are significant cognitive differences between men and women.
Well, the urban monoculture covers this stuff. You're not allowed to talk about it. You know, you're not allowed to admit it in terms of partner [00:23:00] dynamics or anything like that. But then the counter urban monoculture is unfortunately so male dominated. And the urban monoculture cited so holistically was a feminist movement that a anti feminist bent has twisted the truth that women prefer subservient positions when they're in a relationship with a male to women want a man To like, tell them to shut up and get in the kitchen.
Listen, missy, why don't you go knit me a sweater before I slap you in
Malcolm Collins: Yeah,
well, yeah, no, yeah, they, they, they, they also misinterpret dominance for being an asshole. They're like, Oh, so I just need to be like, that's what dominance is, right? It's like really bad acting, not understanding what dominance even is.
Malcolm Collins: That's what frame is. Frame is bad acting that everyone who's not an idiot can see through.
Being a dumb asshole. Have you ever seen like a pickup artist in like real life?
Probably, but I probably wouldn't have noticed it because I'm [00:24:00] too autistic. Oh, they,
Malcolm Collins: well, they, you know, back in the day when peacocking was still popular, they were easy to pick out and they Like,
what, they would wear like a silk blazer
Malcolm Collins: or something?
They dress like Jordan Peterson does now, I guess, you know, like in those wacky suits and stuff. And so, they, they, they wear these, you could tell, like, the whole thing was, was an act, not that it doesn't work, but it secures you sexual partners, but not good relationship partners, because the type of person you want as a relationship partner is somebody who's drawn to you for your vision for the future.
Good, then we're all agreed. But oh dear, what's this? One of the women is about to embarrass us all. I
Well, I, I somewhat disagree. I think that certain aesthetic and styling choices can get a foot in the door and start a conversation. And sometimes that's when you're doing a high throughput approach. Anything that reduces that initial. Oh,
The lady has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of her own. What a big dribble. See how the men look at her with utter [00:25:00] contempt. Daphne, we're going home.
Women, know your limits.
I'm not, I'm against
Malcolm Collins: the act. So I actually would, it may even promote a bit of peacocking, you know, dress a little weird.
It's a conversation, memorable,
distinctive, be approachable. Absolutely.
Malcolm Collins: But what I'm against is frayed.
Yes. No frame frame lame.
Malcolm Collins: Somebody can be like, well, what do you have? I, as a man was just not born very dominant. You know, like I, I don't like to move society forwards.
You wrote to me once, listing the four chief virtues. Wisdom, justice, fortitude, and temperance.
As I read the list, I knew I had none of them. But I have other virtues, ambition. That can be a virtue when it drives us to excel.
Malcolm Collins: I don't like to, you know, it's like, well, maybe you don't need a partner then.
I
don't, but no, no, no. I don't even think it's that. And dominance manifests in many different ways, especially when we're talking about this relationship dynamic context, I don't think that it is uniquely some desire to [00:26:00] be a king. I remember we talked about those different archetypes. Like there's the Kings, the Knights, and some other things you put together.
You don't have to be someone who aspires to be a leader or change the world, or even lead other men to be very attractive to a woman. I think dominance. Can also come across fundamentally it's having a strong objective function and being very passionate about it and not having cognitive dissonance in your action.
So I went before I ever met you, the only crushes I ever had. We're on guys who in that way were very dominant, but totally not dominant as like leaders or anything, not really keen on pulling rank on people, but just, they knew what they were about. They were super passionate about those things and they were fucking good at them because, and you could see that they had no, I mean, there were obviously issues in their lives that I'm sure they were working out and everything, but they compared to the average person.
Didn't [00:27:00] show that same wavering of like, I don't know if this is what I want. I, I feel anxious. I care about what people think about me. They did not care about what other people thought about them. Yeah. They did not. And they knew exactly what they were all about. One of these people, as you know, Catholic.
Yeah. And now, now, now is a Catholic priest. He was just all about the faith. And then the other was like, My favorite
Malcolm Collins: story is, is he decided this. When Simone was hitting on him like you were pursuing him and the way you were pursuing him was by asking him questions about Catholic doctrine. Yeah. And, and he's, he's like, I love talking about Catholic doctrine with you so much, Simone, I've decided to become a priest.
And you're like, No! Backfire! Yeah, that's how good my
game is. And then the other person I had a
Malcolm Collins: It showed that you were able to have stimulating intellectual conversations with someone, but that that's how you were pursuing him. And that's what was interesting to you. Well, but no, the
attractive thing was that he knew what he was about.
And I'll have the number eight. That's a party platter. It serves twelve people. [00:28:00] I know what I'm about, son. Go ahead, Ron.
And that comes, that comes off as quite dominant and having that vision and knowing what someone's about, I think is really big. So it's, you don't have to be about changing the world. You have to know You have to, to basically not have other masters, if that makes sense. So one thing that makes them
Malcolm Collins: not, you can have other masters, but you need to relate to them with a moral code that is your own.
Yeah. Well, yeah, you've chosen
your math, I guess. So what I mean by that is, is I see someone. Who, for example, follows God, you know, or, or no, like, this is my objective function, this is what I care about. Absolutely. That is the highest point of hierarchy in their lives. And they, they are subservient to those goals or values.
Just like you are subservient to your objective function, Malcolm. But there is no one who against their will or knowledge is controlling them. There's no other force. Whereas the vast majority of humans, and you can see this in most people that you interact with, [00:29:00] are subconsciously and unknowingly, and without consent or choice, being ruled By TikTok being ruled by video game design, being ruled by wayfinding design, being ruled by a billion different forces that they have no control over, that they have no knowledge over, you know, their hunger, their instincts, their impulses.
And this is why people experience FOMO and cognitive dissonance. And, and, and ultimately all these things accumulate into this, this very palpable form of insecurity. Vagueness that makes people very unattractive. And people always talk about confidence being so attractive. That confidence comes from this inherent dominance, dominance of self.
And like you said earlier, dominance of society, but again, dominance of society doesn't necessarily mean that you're Steve jobs, starting a company or Elon Musk running a billion companies or the president of the United States. It could just mean. Dominance [00:30:00] of yourself. And, and so I just want to emphasize that you don't have to necessarily I will, I will
Malcolm Collins: word dominance of yourself a bit differently.
It means, you know, who you are and you know why you're that person. I E I have chosen to be, this was my life. I have chosen to strive for this in my life for these reasons. And while I am open to like, it can't be, I'm afraid to question these regions because if you're afraid to question the reasons why you are who you are, then that comes across as insecurity.
Yeah. I am comfortable questioning these reasons, but I am confident that I will not find a better answer. And that's why I am looking for a potentially better answer. And here I would note that all of this is in the context of long term relationship.
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: So there is a, a, a bad point of data that a lot of red pill men get, or a lot of like really sexually active men get which is, Slave women, I'll call them.
So
Oh, yes, okay, that, that sexual, like, phenotype. So
Malcolm Collins: we argue in some of our videos, and I think that the data is pretty strong on [00:31:00] this that women have a bimodal sexuality, which sort of comes into play. To exist polymorphically i. e. one genotype encodes two different sexual expressions, and the sexual expression will change based on their environment.
So specifically, women in a historic context needed to be optimized for two different potential scenarios. frequently. One is they are in a, a partnership where they have one dedicated partner. They might be one of a few wives or one wife, but you know, one dedicated partner. The other is, is they're being passed around by a group of men.
If they are being passed around by a group of men, they are likely property in the spoils of war. This happened very, very, very, very frequently in our history. We can see this from genetic samples. We can see this from historical accounts. And this would have, there would have been a, a large evolutionary and fitness incentive for women to be able to adopt to these scenarios and learn to enjoy them.
And I think we've talked about this on other podcasts and some people are like, no, I prefer Louise Perry's explanation to this. And I'll explain why the [00:32:00] Louise Perry explanation is wrong. So if you look at the data and this is very obviously true from the data a big chunk of women, Much bigger than you'd think prefer what we call like violence of sexuality i.
e. being choked, being slapped, being degraded, etc. And I've asked Ayla from her datasets to test this theory, and she's like, yes, it is the more promiscuous women that fall into this set. And so my assumption is that as you sleep with more people, the oxytocin you release during sex, and the things that turn you on change as a woman, and you begin to prefer these more degrading, violent things that would occur to you if you were sexless.
Now, this is What Louise Perry thinks is happening here is she says, no, it's actually women are normalizing to male porn and that, that males are interested in all of these degrading things to women that arouse them. And so they've created porn around this and then women get exposed to the porn.
And it's like, yeah, but then why are the women searching for that porn more than the men? Um, I feel like up
to a great extent, the whole men thing, there's like this one line in community where one of the characters was like, I just want her to be comfortable.
Like,
Malcolm Collins: yeah, men are not [00:33:00] that into gray, right?
Like 50 shades of gray is not being picked up because women are being exposed to male porn. In fact, women just don't engage with male porn much at all. We saw this in our data set. If you're looking at like visual porn types. That's not really what women engage with as much. They mostly engage with romantic, erotic fan fiction and romantic novels.
Are there two? Yeah. Or like Yaoi. Yeah. Masturbatory outlets. And that these are not being influenced by male sexuality at all. They are not at least I don't think that there's many male, like Yaoi writers. There's, there's not many male romance novel writers. I wouldn't
know. Oh yeah. I don't think so.
I don't know. It doesn't matter though, because it, the, the content, this idea that women would like, there's no market where women start buying. A product that men start, like, I don't know, [00:34:00] how do I articulate this? Like diet Coke. There's no mechanism to
Malcolm Collins: realistically happen. Yeah. Like
if, if women markets form around demand and women like consumers don't just change their desires because the product that's there is what's there.
You know, I, I, I, I, I, I'm so,
Malcolm Collins: we're both so sleep deprived. Yeah. We both came back from a two, two, two trip thing right now. But I, I I know I understand. I think most of the audience will understand what you're saying. It's just not a mechanism of action we see in society. And people,
well, if the product sucks for them, they're not going to like, learn how to like it.
They're just not going to consume it.
I should note here that the problem with her theory, isn't just that there isn't a mechanism of action where women can pick this up. Like for example, you could argue, , maybe these women who are sleeping around a lot, occasionally have men do these violent acts of them in bed. And then eventually, , that starts turning them on. And it's like, but that's not like the way that sexuality works.
, like, have you [00:35:00] ever had a partner who did something that initially turned you off and then after a while of doing it to you, it started turning you on and you started craving it with other partners. I've never heard of that ever. , it's always, well, when it first happened, it secretly turned me on a bit and then later I would became more accepting of it.
Not. No, I found it intensely discussing at first. And then later I was aroused by it. But in addition to that, You don't just have the problem of, there's no realistic mechanism of action for this, but you have to explain why despite a very strong evolutionary pressure for, in some contexts, women to become aroused by violence.
It's how they survived and ended up having surviving offspring in, in scenarios where their tribe with raided and they were taken, or the city was raided and they were taken, which we know happened a lot. Historically it's even recorded in the Bible. You have to explain why despite strong, selective genetic pressures for women to be aroused by violence in specific scenarios that they would not be at all. Because I think it's taken as a [00:36:00] presumption in this argument that, okay.
Well, I mean, why would women be aroused by this? And it's like, well, there's an obvious reason why they'd be aroused by this. And the burden is on you to explain why that evolutionary pressure didn't have that effect. You don't get to just ignore it and say, well, I'm a feminist and I believe women are good, wholesome doves that never do anything wrong and have no desires that are untoured.
Malcolm Collins: No, I will note here that I think a minority of women. Are born in this sex slave mindset in terms of their arousal patterns. Sure. But I think it's a minority because I know even among the virgins I slept with, some of them preferred this type of sexual engagement.
And so like, I know that it's not necessarily that everyone needs to sleep. Some people may sleep around a lot and still prefer the really sweet kind and everything.
I think there's, it's not, there are, there are confounding factors in this. So just because you've had a lot of, I just want to say if you've had a lot of partners or whatever and you're, you're sort of having this sexual phenotype that's of the more sex slave variety, that is one [00:37:00] way.
But I think some people also like those. slave scenarios or like extreme, like violence scenarios for other reasons. Like they like letting go of control or something. Like there are other factors that might make those same scenarios attractive. You know, some people like rocky road ice cream because of the chocolate and some people like it because of the texture and the crunch.
You know what I mean?
Malcolm Collins: But there's two things to note here. One is, is that breaking sexuality down like this actually makes it very easy for us to teach our daughters about sexuality and why they, like what the, Actual cost is to sleeping around too much is that their arousal pattern for change. It doesn't mean they'll get less arousal.
It just means it may be harder to find certain types of guys or potentially easier, depending on what they're looking for
or that they shouldn't expect the same kind of emotional attachment to the person they end up marrying in the end. If they want to marry
Malcolm Collins: someone. Is there like, I just haven't gotten that same connection I got with those guys.
I dated. Back in college, it's like, well, you're never going to get that again. That was like, they can't compare it.
Yeah. What happens a lot with both men and [00:38:00] women is that they compare every new partner they date to a best hits composite of every past partner they've ever dated, which is so
Malcolm Collins: bad, which is again, why, why you should Only, only merry virgins like I did.
I'm horrible. I'm such a double standard. But I also want to make a a point here which is, and this is what this larger point was around. Do not confuse what arouses a woman with what she wants from her daily life. Okay. Even when women have these moved into these sort of sex slave mindsets they do not want to be treated like that in a day to day scenario.
Okay, they want to be able to code switch in, you know, go to a BDSM dungeon or do that at home. Right. But That's when the doors are closed, and when no one else is watching. Alright? I am sure, if you are a guy, and you are watching this, right, there are things on your computer, the famous, and I'm gonna find from there's an anime which starts with you know, he, he's okay, he was reincarnated in another [00:39:00] world, and he's like, I hope my, my friend dumps my part in that.
And like, like, like walking to the bathtub and dumping in the computer and you're like, oh, you're such a bro, man.
Send an ambulance! Hurry! There's so much blood. It hurts satoru! Hang on! Tamura, I miss me something. My computer's hard drive. I need you to dump it in the bathtub and fry it. Just promise me, you'll have a happy life together.
And please, wipe my hard drive.
My normal life as a 37 year old man is ancient history. I hope Tamura remembered to wipe my hard drive for me. , I hope he didn't look to see what's on it.
All done. Please rest in peace, .. If I ever have a son, I'll name him [00:40:00] after the hero who saved my life.
Malcolm Collins: But the point I'm making here is, as a man, there are many things that may arouse you that you did not choose to have arouse you, right? Like, this is a weird thing about leftists. I mean, they're like, Go and find literally everything that arouses you and it's like, there are things I'd prefer to not know if they might arouse me.
I, I don't need to ever look at that because if it arouses me, then I would just be like, but I don't want to engage with that kind of stuff. Yeah, like now I don't
feel very good about myself, you know.
Malcolm Collins: But all men run across weird things that arouse it. Well, not all men, but it's, it's enough that it's a trope, right?
You don't. Expect those things that arouse you, or you don't want those things that arouse you to be part of your daily life at work. Or among your friend group or you know, in the way that you're raising your kids. So it's very important that you're like, Oh I know that a lot of women or even the woman that I'm with likes taking on an extremely submissive position in a sexual context.
The role that she probably [00:41:00] wants to serve outside of that sexual context is the supporter role that we were discussing earlier. Again, not all women fall into the supporter archetype. I've actually seen another archetype that's really interesting which I mentioned to Simone, which I call the harem archetype, that from an evolutionary perspective would have been advantageous.
And these are women who seem to get off on being submissive to men and dominant to other women, and it's a fairly common sexual subtype that I've seen. And so, in a historic context, why would that evolution, like, why would that be successful? It's likely because this dynamic allowed a woman more sexual access to a partner when she was in a culture.
that had harems, i. e. If I am a wife and I don't mind joining my husband or even like joining my husband when he's with another woman and I take on a dominant role in that particular interaction, I am more likely to get pregnant more times because I am going to be with him more times than the other women in the harem.
Now I want to get into some data here. So vertical preferences, both men and women tend to pursue the most socially desirable partners, [00:42:00] regardless of their own desirability level. This contradicts the matching hypothesis that people seek partners of similar desirability. Which I thought was pretty cool.
Pretty interesting. And I had mentioned that earlier and I'll put the paper on screen here. And then another interesting one here is the initiator advantage. Those who initiate contact, especially women are more likely to connect with more desirable partners than those who wait to be contacted.
However, women are four times less likely to initiate contact. In Simone initiated contact in our relationship. So I would note for women who are looking for partners, I'm like, how many people do you email a week about this? You know,
it's probably the most meaningful. Arbitrage opportunity. Women have low barrier because it just, they, women never contact men.
So you have such a huge advantage. We have the other women, if you just make the smallest effort.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and I don't know why, like women don't do it. How many emails were you sending a week when you were dating to men?
30 plus 30 plus.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So. You want to partner, like me, [00:43:00] 30 plus emails a week. Okay.
I'm going that, and that, that, that's, that takes a lot of balls to do Simone, and I really appreciate that you did that.
Yeah. Cause people are terrifying. Oh,
Malcolm Collins: no. This is another city here. I'm going to show where women show a stronger preference in high status partners compared to men. This is particularly evident in long term relationship context and long term relationship contexts are again, when you're dealing with this alternate form of sexuality.
Remember I was like, okay, you can deal with the. Closed in arousal context, where you might have a sex slave turned arousal pattern woman, where the man doesn't actually need to be high status, he just needs to perform the role of the conqueror, right? Because it's a, it's a scene, right? Like everything's imaginary, that's why dungeons are created that way, like BDSM dungeons are created that way too.
Change the context of how you're thinking about this in the same way that you might behave differently when you go home on vacation to like your childhood house and then you, you, you fall into a different way of thinking about yourself and relating but in long term relationships, you can't fake that the guy actually needs to be somebody whose [00:44:00] mission you are interested in advancing., in another study, it was found that, 81 percent of women said they would be less likely to date someone who's unemployed compared to 56 percent of men. Also, political views are increasingly more important to dating. Most Republicans and Democrats say they would not date someone from across the aisle, but this trend is more common among Democrats than Republicans, which puts men at a bad position.
Because there are two female Democrats for every one male Democrat. And there is two male Republicans for every one female Republican. But what's important to note is that people's political views evolve over time. Like you were very solidly Democrat when I met you, almost as like blue as you could get.
And I was not Republican at least. I also find very interesting here. And we've, we've seen some guys recently who like we've been trying to help with dating advice and I've thought about how much they're looking for the full package out of the bag in terms of like the partner that is intellectually engaging to them.
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: And [00:45:00] also hot,
like model hot.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like model hot, but also even just intellectually engaging and not terribly boring. When I met you, you were compared to who you are today, a fairly boring person. And I don't mean that in like a derogatory sense. You were a social media manager at the company you were working at.
So she managed their Facebook profile, basically. You
More than that, but that's, that's getting pedantic.
Malcolm Collins: Then you you know, you, I, I'd ask you, like, what, what do you live for? Like, what's your purpose? And you're like, I've never thought about that. It's like, how have you lived your whole life and not thought about that?
Like, it, but through talking through this stuff with her she has now reached a point when, before I was like, why would I want to make friends? Like, people were like, why, why do you, Like, why do you want to save the world if you're so disgusted with humanity and everything like that? And it's not necessarily that I find it burdensome to talk to a specific individual.
Burdened with new friends
Malcolm Collins: It is that there is no
Individual that I would [00:46:00] rather be talking to in terms of intellectual richness than my wife. So, know, if I'm at a party or something like that, That's time. I'm not alone with my wife talking, right? And so you went from somebody who I found, you know, in conversations, I liked being around you and talking to you because you genuinely engaged and we're not overly boxed in. Like you weren't like afraid to tackle new ideas and you, when you came up with an idea.
So like you talked to me about like, and I noticed this when I do chat AI's, I always fall into the same pattern again. Which is to sort of start a conversation with a girl, if I'm talking to a girl in chat AI, it's like, what's your purpose in life? Like, what do you, what do you want from your life?
You nerd. That's, that with a chat AI is the thing I am most interested in. And it's actually funny to me that the answers I get are very similar to the answers I would get from basic people when I was actually dating. But I guess the point I'm making here is a lot of things in a potential partner improve over [00:47:00] time as you interact with them.
What matters is the trajectory, not the start point. You start with a woman who is very intellectually interesting, but she's recalcitrant to evolve her perspective. She's likely going to be worse than a person who is very intellectually naive, but is very eager to evolve their perspective if it is To work on something with you.
And this is another thing I've noticed where we have a lot of influencer friends and they'll be like, I am scared. Or they don't like, like they talk down about dating their fans. I'm like, why, why would you not want to date your fans? Like if, if, if like Simone died, that is like the exclusive dating pool I would be looking at.
And they're like, well, they look up to me too much. I'm like, what?
Okay. Anyway. Do you have any thoughts on this before I go further?
I think it's underrated the extent to which interest in and [00:48:00] dedication to a partner should be looked at in, in dating. Although I do think that from a female perspective, it can backfire. It freaked me out when guys were super keen on me in a like, I want to reach out to you, I want to spend time with you, I want to get to know you.
So, this is more of a male thing. That's
Malcolm Collins: actually a really a good point here in terms of filtering partners. I mean, I basically started every date exactly laying my cards on the table. This is what I'm looking for, this is my sexual experience, this is my, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, are you interested?
Like, I didn't do it without their consent. I was like, hey, do you want to talk about, like, what we're really here for? And they'd say, yeah. And I'm like, okay, so I'm looking for this. This is what I'm looking for in a partner. Specifically, you know, as I said on the first date, I said I'm looking to marry someone.
And some people are like, yeah, but when I do that, then people don't re engage me for the next date. And it's like, well, that is because, and, and the person who was talking about this, they were like, well, you know, I may be totally honest with [00:49:00] them, but they're not being totally honest with me about their goals, right?
It's like, well, that doesn't really matter because if they don't come on the second date that they know what their goals are, even if you don't know what their goals are, they know what their goals are. And so if you're totally honest about your goals, Then they're going to check that against their goals and they're going to say, okay, this will work or it won't work.
You have just saved yourself the four months to figure this out because both of you were playing whatever. And we've actually thought we might do a track on this because I think that like if I was going to create any sort of like weird religious mandate for like my culture or my people, if you were like, oh, you're going to ask that everyone dresses like you or whatever.
I'm like, no. Like, we have, like, sumpturary mandates that we talked about before, which is just, like, you know, wear durable clothing, don't optimize for brand names if you can find something less expensive elsewhere but they're more just, like, normal stuff that wouldn't out you. This is something that might out people which is to say tactical honesty, you called it when we were riding in the car.
Which is to say that you are praised and, and, and, and should think highly of [00:50:00] yourself and maybe even treat it as something of a mandate that when you are talking to people, you don't beat around the bush of what you are looking for, even if it comes across as awkward. And what's interesting is I think that pretty quickly, if you did this, you would really quickly select for a specific personality subtype.
Genetically speaking as a cultural group. And it would be very obvious to people when they're there, like, oh, you're the people who are always like, hey, what do you want from this interaction? Like, what are your goals? Listen, I actually, you know, even at Stanford Business School, we would do these like exercises for, Negotiating.
And that was the way I did it as well. I was like, list every single one of your goals. I'll list every single one of my goals and we'll find a way to maximize the two.
I hated that though, because in so many of these games these negotiating games in, in business school, I always took exactly the same approach.
It was like, okay, well, let's just be 100 percent transparent about all of our needs. Restrictions. requirements, etc. [00:51:00] Except in so many of these games, some people's prompts were to be like, intentionally misleading.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but this is the thing about these games versus not these games, right? Yeah, like in the real
world,
Malcolm Collins: honestly, if you just lay your cards out on
the table, you're more likely to get what you want, assuming that the other party But because
Malcolm Collins: there's multiple interaction problem, right?
If they are misleading to one individual, they will be misleading to future individuals. The biggest problem with the full honesty approach is it's much harder for women to implement than men. And then might be like, why is that the case? Well, it has to do with the fact that men are much more likely to be interested in a woman just for sex and therefore will signal to the woman that they want a longer term commitment or a more serious relationship than they actually won't.
Want to get sexual access whereas women, there's really nothing that they would dishonestly signal to a man. If the man is letting everything out on the table. So by this, what I mean is, you know, if you're like, yeah, I want a marriage and in the marriage, we will have a prenup. And this is what the prenup will be.
[00:52:00] On the first date that if she's like, oh, I wanted you for your money, then it's like, okay, well, good that we sorted that out early. You know, there's actually
this clip from an old show that. Has been doing the rounds recently. People have been like remixing it and doing their own versions of it where I don't even know what the show is, but these people just completely negotiate out their relationship or try to, and they're being like 100 percent transparent.
I'm single, you're single. What do you say we get married? Well, I'm glad you finally decided on the direct approach. What's your offer? Single, rich male seeks matrimony. Primary residence? Westchester County. Would you be open to considering a secondary residence in Manhattan?
Central Park West. South. Done. Time spent together? Eight hours, five days a week. Seven hours, twelve hours weekends. Fifty five hours aggregate, specifics to be determined later. I'm amenable to that, children. One. Three. Two. Done. Vacations. December, Hawaii.
June, the vineyard. June, fine, but Hawaii. Nope, the vineyard. Is that a deal breaker for you? I'm afraid so. Me too. Well, we gave it a shot. I'm sure you'll find a better match. Thanks for the time.
And then at the very end, they like hit a non [00:53:00] negotiable and they're like, well, it was worth a try. And they like shake hands and move on. And I'm like, this is the dream. But the funny thing is, I think the fact that it's gone viral is People want that. I think people actually really want that and see that and they're like, God, I wish I could just have that.
I wish I could just do that. And the thing is, You can what we're missing is a culture in which that's not seen as freakish, right? Because if you were actually the
Malcolm Collins: worst thing ever, one of them, you know, one of the things that I would always ask people, like, when I was dating and stuff like that before making a move is, you know, we'd be talking about something and maybe it would be something slightly edgy.
Like, you know, it could be like what they're into or whatever. And then I'd ask them something like, well, do you find me attractive? And this is something that like, people just don't ask. I don't know why they don't ask it. Like. It's a fairly easy thing. And it's not even that much of like a social overreach.
But it's a very useful way to determine if an individual is interested in more or not. Yeah. Did I ask you that on the first [00:54:00] date?
No, because I think you found it pretty obvious that I was super into you. You didn't need to ask. You know, I'm staring at you with rapt attention as you tell me your entire life philosophy and story.
So. Yeah. But I, I, I, yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing is that there are so many obvious questions that you can ask early on dating. And you should just ask them and you should just be transparent. And the thing about tactical honesty, as we've discussed it, is that a lot of people don't want to deploy tactical honesty because they are afraid that they will be rejected, that they will turn people away, you But the point of tactical honesty is that you are getting to know faster.
And yes, you will sometimes turn people away. And those are people who maybe after five dates would have been a terrible match. And then you've wasted. A ton of money and time. And now you've lost that person. Or if this is like in business [00:55:00] or in other social circles, these are just people who will stab you in the back, who will gossip behind your back, who will not actually support you.
You want to filter them out right away and you are going to filter people out. That's what
Malcolm Collins: I will, I will note on, on sort of a mandate for tactical honesty, as it is not a mandate for telling the truth It's a mandate for not hiding something for the only reason that you're hiding it is that it will make you look weird.
I. e. for, for the, for preserving social norms. Yeah, because it's,
it's not deontological honesty. It's not telling people the truth always because you always have to tell the truth and never lie. Because sometimes lies are the most expedient and Kind of honorable thing to do. Like sometimes telling someone the truth out of nowhere, it just doesn't really help anything.
Like, okay, I'll be honest with you, Malcolm. The other day you were like, Oh, Simone, you burst a blood vessel in your eye. And I'm like, great. See, just like, all I'm going to do is just feel worse about myself right now. Like, there's nothing I can do about it. We're not seeing anyone. So it wasn't like I have to hide anything right now.
It's just, [00:56:00] no, I know you find me really disgusting looking, you know, like this is not helpful. So like
Malcolm Collins: marginally less attractive.
Yeah, but like, did I, like, okay, you know, I would have seen that in a mirror. There was no one that I needed to hide that from. Here's the thing
Malcolm Collins: about tactical honesty that a lot of people miss, where it's provided me a lot of utility in my life, is when you do it, people are much, like, if you do want to lie to someone, it is much easier.
Because people are like, Oh, he's autistic. He doesn't know what he's supposed to ask. He has no tact. Yeah. And it's like, no, actually I have held a number of my cards back. I just know that they're not relevant to me betting you. If you see what I mean by that, right? Like you having access to those cards would not sort out whether our relationship is going to work earlier or later.
Here's an example. I have some friends that are very, very wealthy and they do not tell their partners on dates that they are very, very wealthy. That is a great holding back of a card. For the other partners perspective may cause them to override [00:57:00] some of the deal breakers that they laid out on the table that they were hoping if the person actually finds these things to be deal breakers, it's I'll treat them as deal breakers.
And so when you have like a really high quality. thing about you, that is best to hide.
Yeah,
Malcolm Collins: yeah. Unless you
want that to be the thing that someone cares about in the relationship, but wealth is not one of those ideal things at all.
Malcolm Collins: Here's some other fun survey findings. They said he measured marital satisfaction over four years, and it shows that husbands were more satisfied initially and remained more satisfied over that time period if they had more attractive wives.
So the attractiveness of a wife. Related to husband's marital satisfaction, but it didn't relate as strongly to the wife's marital satisfaction, i. e. when women are sleeping around, they might care about what the partner looks like, but not as much when they're marrying, or at least in terms of the functional impact that has on their belief that that marriage is a good marriage after a few years.
Here's another fun one. Minton to report placing higher importance on physical attractiveness and surveys while women report valuing social status more. [00:58:00] However, in actual speed dating scenarios, both genders seem to prioritize physical attractiveness. Similarly. Now this finding wasn't replicated.
There was another study that argued differently, but it's fun to know that it's out there. And men found ambition unattractive in women, very high ambition, which I wouldn't at all. I find the high ambition extremely attractive in women, but I think this is an important thing to note here. I find high ambition attractive in women.
If that ambition is for me i. e. they want to achieve greatness. Which is a little different than I want to achieve greatness and I want you to have nothing to do with it. Which I wouldn't say is unattractive because I would think, well, I just need to prove I'm a worthy leader to her. Which is a position I have found myself in before.
Yeah.. But I think for some men, they see that as the woman prioritizing her own strategy, career and future above theirs, which is really interesting how we've created this form of gender equality in our relationship. Yet it is completely gender unequal. What do you mean? We do everything together.
We're co CEOs of everything. [00:59:00] But how is it gender
unequal?
Malcolm Collins: We do different roles.
Yeah. I don't know. They're not, they're not designated along necessarily, okay, they end up playing out along traditional gender lines, but they weren't chosen because it was like, well, as is tradition, you will handle all things outside the house and I will handle all things inside the house.
And you know, that's not, we just did what we were best at. So I don't know.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I think a lot of people could hear this and they're like, what, they're saying the woman shouldn't have her own life? And I'm like, no, I'm saying the woman and the man shouldn't have their own life.
Yeah, that, that a relationship is It is an enterprise in favor of shared objective functions and values.
Yeah. You're, you're giving up your personal autonomy and rights and freedom in exchange for devotion to something where doing it with a partner will make that devotion more effective. It's bizarre to me [01:00:00] that people expect from a relationship, some kind of concierge or entertainer or servant or courtesan.
Who will just make your life more pleasant and take care of you? What, what is that?
Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, you have to, as a man, and this is really interesting, where I think a lot of men are like, oh women have some biological predilection to want to Serve a man, right? They're like, Oh, that's great. And it's like, not really because they're human beings, right?
Who might be equally competent to you, right? And that means more and more prove that you are worthy of that dedication, which is a very difficult task. But you would prove that not through frame, but not through the way you treat her, but through your actions Throughout the course of the day, you know, how much time are you spending on work?
What are the ideas you're generating? How much time are you spending on research? How much time are you spending on? I'm just thinking of me, for example, like if I wasn't bringing you [01:01:00] consistently interesting and new ideas that expanded your perception of reality, you'd be pretty disappointed with me.
I don't think you'd leave me, but you'd be disappointed.
Yeah, I really like that part of our relationship.
Malcolm Collins: But it's a mandate for me. Like I get up and one of the things I have to do every morning is find some interesting thing to talk to Simone about. Or I've said before when people are like, oh, you're going to run out of ideas for the show.
And I'm like, my life is Arabian nights. Like, I'm not gonna, I'm just committing to do it on tape now. So hopefully I can keep coming up with new ideas for you guys.
I love it. You entertain me, Malcolm. I will let you live another day.
Malcolm Collins: I don't know what I do if you left. You do so much of the, this is something we were recently talking about where we're like, we both are so reliant on each other.
Most of the opportunities are pretty much all of the major opportunities we have. We have due to my outreach, yet Simone has executed on all of them. And I [01:02:00] don't think I have the diligence or work ethic to execute on opportunities. Yet I don't think that you have the, I don't know why, why you don't source your own opportunities.
And the
simple way to put it is you can't do anything without me and I won't do anything without you.
Malcolm Collins: I'd be so screwed.
We'd both be so screwed.
Malcolm Collins: Well, I love it. And this is the thing where people are like, well. You know, I'd be better off just not dealing with a partner and just, you know, getting pregnant with like seed sperm or something like that, or like eggs and then using a surrogate and then raising the kids.
And it's like, you can do that, but you are heavily underestimating how much easier a synergistic relationship makes your life.
The thing is, I think most people don't want to most, this is otherwise you would see so many more people, especially women, single women, just. having kids because it's not that expensive to get like a sperm donor.[01:03:00]
Malcolm Collins: Well, I see a lot of women fantasizing about this and very few actually doing it.
Yeah, because it's not actually that appealing to Oh, just quick note that it's actually up
Malcolm Collins: on the Discord and other people are saying this and it's something that people should know. Don't use sperm banks. They do not confirm the information they ask people and they use such strict screening criteria that the only people who get through are lying.
Yeah, it's
terrible.
Malcolm Collins: It's Terrible. Basically, you are selecting for a liar if you use a sperm bank. If you want known donors, that's something I've done before. I'm open to doing it. But do go to known donor websites. That's the better place to do this.
Yeah. Or literally consider your friend's network and people that you I
Malcolm Collins: would far consider friend networks, right?
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: And, and when you're considering your friend network and you're an older woman, remember that you probably want a man who is not your equal in age. So I've seen a lot of women like this, where they're like 45 and they're looking for a 45 year old spone donor. And I'm like, you are unlikely to conceive.
If you do that, you need to be looking
well,
Malcolm Collins: or you can
conceive, [01:04:00] but there's just going to be more deterioration. Like they're just going to have worse health odds and outcomes on
Malcolm Collins: average. Oh, that's gross. And it's like, not really because you're not having sex with this person.
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah.
I wish there were a better basis for like, there's a young ambitious man at your company.
Hey kid. Can I, I would like, I would like to have a child using your genetic material as you show potential. I will also mentor you if that would make you feel better about it. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, Siobhan Zillis at she works at Neuralink, right? Like she's had now three kids with Elon Musk.
Now it's not ideal that Elon Musk is on the older end, but like, I think that this, this, this concept of like really respecting someone in your workspace, you know, and being like, Hey, like, I know what he, I know what he works like. I know his ambition. Like, I, you know, we, you know, I see [01:05:00] how he acts under pressure.
Like, this is a fantastic scenario for choosing genetic material. And one of the things that you and I did when we first started dating was start a company together. I quit my job, you know, like we, that was a great way to vet each other. Both for our Children's genetic material, but also for a relationship.
So if only there were some societal basis for that, but I don't see that happening any, anytime soon.
Malcolm Collins: Well, you can build a culture around it. Like, and this is something we've thought about with our own kids and dating is how do we ensure that the partners feel part of our family? Oh,
yes. To like when our Children are dating people, how do we assimilate their partners into our family culture?
Malcolm Collins: Yes.
Yeah. No, that's super important, which my
Malcolm Collins: family does really well historically. So I'm not as worried about that. I mean, basically, you just have to be nice and actively engaged.
But should we have like our family foundation? cover the cost of egg freezing for our daughters, not just for their own use, but for donation.
Malcolm Collins: Sure. [01:06:00]
I mean, I don't know. I'm just thinking like, if you're trying to create a society in which people make this possible for their peers within that culture, you have to like step up. Yeah, no, I would, I
Malcolm Collins: would sponsor that. And we might even do it where like the family foundation gets half the money for the sale or something.
Not sale. I mean, I'm talking donation. Oh, for donation. Yeah. I'd be open to that.
Lots of, lots of awesome people. You know, once they become aware of this as a way to do something really kind for other people, I've done it 100 percent for free. Consider that, for example, Diana Fleischman has been on the podcast several times, donated embryos multiple times over.
And, and in one case, or maybe in maybe two cases at in the UK where they don't give you fentanyl for the like embryo extraction. So like she even had like a less fun experience, you know, usually the surgery is like the treat, you know? But. She did it. Other friends that we know who I won't name have done it multiple times and then those, those donations have resulted in live births and other mothers without actually being [01:07:00] mothers.
And this is actually a great option for women who don't themselves want to have and raise kids or just never really find the right partner, but who want to really help other people. And it really helps those other people, especially if they do it when they're in their twenties. So
Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone.
I love you
Malcolm Collins: too, Malcolm. Have a spectacular day. You too. And I guess this is all we're doing today because of the Sadly.
Torsten, can you show me how this works? I press, I press a white button, I press a black button, I press a green button, I press a red button, I press a white button, I press a green button, I press a yellow button. Octavia, can you show me how yours works? How does this one work?
Torsten, you need to [01:08:00] Titan? Torsten, you need to let Titan push the buttons.
Women Prefer Submissive Roles in Relationships but Not in The Way You Think