In this eye-opening episode, Malcolm and Simone dive deep into the complexities of the modern trans movement and its potential impact on vulnerable youth. Drawing from personal experiences and extensive research into cult psychology, they explore the fine line between genuine gender dysphoria and the allure of a "trans cult" that may lead non-trans individuals to make life-altering decisions.
Malcolm argues that the current cultural climate, combined with the challenges of puberty and the desire for social acceptance, has created a perfect storm for young people to be drawn into a "trans cult" that promises affirmation and belonging. He distinguishes between the experiences of truly trans individuals and those who may be influenced by social contagion, emphasizing the need for nuanced conversations and support systems.
Simone shares her own struggles with body dysmorphia and the role of media in shaping unrealistic expectations. Together, they discuss the importance of strong family relationships, carefully curated friend groups, and open, honest discussions about gender identity and the potential consequences of transitioning.
The conversation also delves into the politicization of the trans movement, the erosion of parental rights, and the dangers of demonizing or sheltering children from these complex issues. Malcolm and Simone offer practical advice for parents seeking to protect their children from harmful influences while fostering understanding and compassion.
Whether you're a parent, an educator, or simply someone trying to make sense of the rapidly evolving landscape of gender identity, this thought-provoking discussion is essential listening.
Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] You need to look at this like a kid who's going into this. You are in a group where you are being teased for being different from whatever, right? Like everybody feels this way when they're, when they're going through puberty,
Simone Collins: your body changing, your body getting gross, stinky things happening that don't make you feel good, extreme mood fluctuations, which of course make you more volatile.
Like women get hit hard by, you know, things that are moving them more towards feelings of depression. And extreme social anxiety as well. Like you, you feel like you stick out like a sore thumb, you desperately want to belong and yet nothing really seems to fit in terms of something you belong to.
Like all these things, it's just the perfect storm for, for some form of, Oh, this is a solution. And you are desperate
Malcolm Collins: for affirmation. Then you hear the, this is the solution to all this. And keep in mind, by the definitions of trans in today's society, Simone and I are actually trans. I'm just pointing that out to point out that I have no animosity towards this community, and I was in the GSA growing up, everything like that, . this should be [00:01:00] as concerning to actual trans people as it should be to everyone else. Because it leads to these individuals who are joining what is essentially an extremist cult beginning to represent the mainstream trans movement an actually trans person, just wants to live their life as the other gender.
These individuals aren't like that. They just want to preach the cult message. Like once they join, all they care about is all of the things that differentiate the cult from the mainstream cultural group. this is actually, I find to be the core difference between the trans cult and the real trans movement.
Would you like to know more?
Simone Collins: So, Malcolm, I was at this grassroots political event as I'm running for office now state rep in Pennsylvania. And I got really frustrated at this event. And I'm getting concerned in general about the points of focus among conservative voters who I, as a Republican candidate am courting because they seem to be focused on important issues.
But the [00:02:00] wrong things. So for example as we've discussed in numerous podcasts, conservatives are very concerned about the urban monoculture, essentially erasing their culture, you know, taking their kids and making their kids hate them and leave their culture and generally be miserable people and, you know, I, they don't want that and they don't like seeing that happen, but then what they're focusing on in terms of like actual local issues are things like.
Oh, they're making, they're, they're letting anyone go into girls bathrooms or locker rooms. And I'm like, dude, like teach, you know, teach your daughter self defense. And have her punch out whoever comes at her in the wrong way. I'm way more concerned about if I had a daughter in any school, public or private her coming to me one day and saying, I am in the wrong body and I am going to kill myself if I cannot.
Change my gender right now.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I [00:03:00] want to talk about this in, in like a wider context here. So I want to be clear for our audience. I think that is transness. So we'll talk about transness in different contexts here. I think some historic, like true form of transness. is a real phenomenon that happens to some individuals.
Well, you know, if we do genuine, like if gender matters, right? Like if, if we do actually have like an internal gender in terms of how he perceives the world, it would only be natural or logical that some deformity within that would exist as well. That some individuals would be born. With the wrong sort of gender expression or gender impulses.
But if we look at a horror historic context this is a fairly rare phenomenon, much rarer than something like being born with abnormal arousal pathways in which you are attracted to similar gender individuals and stuff like that. However with that said, and [00:04:00] this is what really got me interested in this this morning is I was talking with my wife and she was like, If the trans movement existed when I was in high school, I would have been trans.
Eva Movet had existed when I was going through these processes that, that, because she had anorexia. She had intense gender dysmorphia or body dysmorphia, where she felt really, really uncomfortable with how she looked going through puberty to the point that it almost ended up killing her. And it's why she cannot you know, conceive naturally anymore.
So, so she did extreme things in an attempt to resolve this body dysmorphia that she had. If there had been a community that told her if you do x and y you will both be affirmed by a community, they'll tell you you're great, we love you, you know, love bombing, however you want to put it, like, you, you are perfect as you are, and that it would fix this for her, that she would no [00:05:00] longer have this she would have gone all in with that community.
And so. And, and keep in mind, she fits all of the demographics that are typically associated with trans ness, right? Like, i. e., autistic individuals, like her, are much more likely to become trans. Individuals who are really high IQ, like, in terms of output, or like, top of their class, also much more likely to become trans.
So, she fits a lot of these. So, when I look at this, I'm like, my kids, that I'm having with this woman, are of this category. And I see this To not diminish actual trans identity, but to say that someone like her could have become trans, could have been living life as a trans person today, and not know that if they hadn't known that was an option, they could have chosen a different life path where they would have been much happier.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Or even like where things would have been less expensive. I mean, fully going trans can also mean a lot of medical procedures, [00:06:00] ongoing hormone therapy. It's just an expensive way to live. Kind of how, like my choice to be anorexic and my youth has led to very expensive IVF treatments. And osteoporosis, which is going to come back and bite me already.
It's, you know, not great, you know, and, and all sorts of other medical conditions. So, I mean. I mean, I
Malcolm Collins: love a quote that you had for me once, which was thank God when I was going through puberty, no marketing group or culture, however you want to frame it, had figured out they could tell me if you only join our ideology, then.
All of your you, you'll feel comfortable in your body. And, but that once you join this ideological group, it's a permanent subscription you need to pay constantly after you, you know, for the ongoing medical expenses. And if you ever deviate from that ideology to even the slightest degree, you know, you look at someone like Buck Angel who really.
Was the first major [00:07:00] player in making the trans movement norm normalized within today's society. And who I see as being like, a a a prime example of this category of transness, which isn't this modern category. The level to which he has been denigrated By the modern trans community because he came out and, and, and one is right leaning and two is uncomfortable with child transition.
And those were the two things that made him basically a demon. So there, it's an, it's an ideological subscription in the way that the community has gone in a way that is very harmful to trans people who would affect this historic definition of trans.
Another person who this happened to. Early trans advocate who really paved the way for the modern trans movement. And then with completely stabbed in the back by that movement was a Caitlyn Jenner Because the modern trans movement views being trans is more of a cultural or political affiliation than just a gender identity that anyone could have regardless of their political [00:08:00] affiliation.
I can't imagine how hard it must be for somebody who was actually trans and came out when it was still this. Extremely discriminated against the group. That now it's become like a fad or like been taken over by this weird cold or at least a portion of the trans community has. And if you find this accusation offensive, when it is just very obviously true that. You know, if I'm a young teen going through puberty and I feel like a social outcast and there's a group that's willing to affirm me so long.
It's like undergo specific changes for that group. Of course, a portion of people are going to. He engaged with that community. Of course it's only rational and Abe. That fact is offensive to you. And do you identify as trans it's? Probably because you're not actually trans. It's probably because you're part of this cold. 'cause that's the only reason I can imagine that you would find something that is very obviously true. That if you give a teenager during a stage, when [00:09:00] most people are very uncomfortable with their bodies, past to affirmation and comfort with their body. That. That.
will convince some people who are not actually trans to transition.
Simone Collins:
So what frustrates me about parents, like conservative parents concerns about their children, which I think are very valid, but then the things that they focus on is that what I'm seeing is strong evidence that most parents are not at all prepared to actually.
Protect their kids, especially if their kids are like me and not actually trans, but very likely to fall into trans as a solution to just general body dysmorphia and being a teenager, which sucks. They just, they're, they're looking at totally the wrong things, right? They're looking at bathrooms.
They're not looking at the cultural interventions they need to be considering to actually protect their children. From memes like this that can be quite harmful. And again, we're not shitting on trans people here. We're just saying there are a lot of people [00:10:00] who are transitioning now and undergoing major, they're not actually trans.
Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: I think so. One thing that I've noticed, cause I've been listening to a lot of stories of people who seem to not have been trans who transitioned. One of the most common things where these conservative parents are making a big mistake is they assume so, so two things, one is, is because their Fits gender norms as they understand them like, you know, these are people with a bunch of boys, a bunch of girls, you know, they might be coming from largest families and they know like this daughter is acting like every other daughter.
I've had quite gender differentiated from the males in my family. And if anything, even classically quite feminine, they assume that they are not at risk from this group. And that is actually almost inversely true from what I've seen. From what I've seen, it's actually the people who fit the gender stereotype, or appear to fit the gender stereotype of their assigned gender, who are most at risk from this sort of thing.
What is ironic here? Is that what puts these [00:11:00] conservative families at risk of having their kids transition when they're not actually trans, is that they are taking the trans community at their word. Assuming that the only people who would transition or at risk of finding this group and lifestyle appealing. Are those who act as if they are not their birth gender, when that is just not true. The community almost doesn't care at all, how much somebody acts like their birth, gender or thinks they are their birth gender.
, at the start they care. How vulnerable that person is to influence. it's much better to think of this modern iteration of the trans movement, the iteration that shits on all of their early path blazers, all of the early people who sacrificed for what is now called the trans movement. Like a cult which has taken over the movement then. As actual trans people, they are just using the [00:12:00] cover that this ideology gives them.
To spread. But also like, obviously this would happen. If you take any thing and say, okay, now this is the thing that people are no longer allowed to criticize in any way, shape or form. The medically speaking.
That gives a lot of cover for.
Psychologically toxic memetic spreading strategies to begin to randomly form and evolve out of that movement. , which we would normally call coats and would normally be shut down on school environments and stuff like that. But because it covers itself in the same way, like a cancer in a human body will say, oh, I'm actually really important.
You really need me. Don't attack this thing. And that's how they keep the other cells from getting rid of them. , this Colt says, oh, I'm actually part of the LGBT movement. And if you call out what I'm doing, you are calling out the LGBT movement when that's just not functionally true at all. It is not a real or historic part of the LGBT movement.
Malcolm Collins: Especially if they are In [00:13:00] any way unpopular or othered by their group, because you need to look at this like a kid who's going into this. You are in a group where you are being teased for being different from whatever, right? Like everybody feels this way when they're, when they're going through puberty, when they're in these teen years.
And this is also the years when people are most likely to convert to different religious frameworks. If you're talking
Simone Collins: about religion. And again, I don't, I want to be clear, like this isn't even about being teased. This is about your body changing, your body getting gross, stinky things happening that don't make you feel good, extreme mood fluctuations, which of course make you more volatile.
Like women get hit hard by, you know, things that are moving them more towards feelings of depression. And extreme social anxiety as well. Like you, you feel like you stick out like a sore thumb, you desperately want to belong and yet nothing really seems to fit in terms of something you belong to.
Like all these things, it's just the perfect storm for, for some form of, Oh, this is a solution. And you are desperate
Malcolm Collins: for [00:14:00] affirmation. Then you hear the, this is the solution to all this. Well, at the same time, when you go to these communities and you say, you know what, I think I might be this, like I might actually be.
Trans. And keep in mind, by the definitions of trans in today's society, Simone and I are actually trans. Because we are agender, which is gender queer, which is a form of trans IEI really don't care what gender I present as. I'm just interested in like efficacious living my life and I don't wanna focus on that.
And that makes me agender a form of gender queer, which is a form of trans, was in most definitions of trans. Anyway, they've really expanded the definition here. But, so you're a kid, you've gone through this and I, I'm just pointing that out to point out that I have no animosity towards this community, exactly, but, you, you, and I was in the GSA growing up, everything like that, like I really care about it.
protecting the LGBT community where I can, while also admitting that there is a group that is socially converting right now. So I've grown up, I am unsure of [00:15:00] myself. I have this thing that is an existential issue for me, you know, comfort within my body because my body is undergoing a lot of changes.
And now there's a group which says we can make you comfortable with your body. And whenever you go to them and you say, I feel like I might be All of a sudden you get love bombed and within cults, this is the common tactic. People know I really love cult psychology. Basically everyone in the community is all of a sudden telling you how great you are whenever you affirm a specific belief system, which is that you were born in the wrong body or that, you know, you are gender queer or that you have any sort of non normative gender representation, you get one.
status within this community into constant Now, if you are a teen, and anyone, you know, if you're a trans individual watching this, you must see, even if somebody wasn't trans if they were a teen, and there was a community that would provide this for them, how appealing that [00:16:00] community would be, and how that community might lead them to making very serious, Like, like cultural decisions and decisions about their, their medical engagement that could have incredibly damaging long term consequences.
And then what I keep seeing is individuals then go to psychologists, like their parents send them to a psychologist because they see the individual is depressed. And most psychologists today have been taught only to affirm when an individual questions their gender. And as such, you know, now they're in an isolated environment.
Why are psychologists doing this? It's not because they're evil. It's just because this is the course of action that doesn't get to get them fired. You know, it's like, in tech, what they say, nobody ever got fired for choosing Microsoft. Like if you choose the default option, it is very safe for you.
Well, this then creates a problem if in any individual going through puberty, you can do this thing, which I believe is true. I believe even me, if I had a group of individuals who are [00:17:00] constantly pushing this, we will affirm you if you say you feel uncomfortable with your gender and adopt this ideology.
Even I might have been susceptible to this as, like, masculine presenting as I am. And what's really scary to me when I read these stories is they have this common element. Where it is an individual that may have been a bit of a social outcast, but otherwise was a, you know, a totally average individual, you know, preteen.
They encounter a group of friends, and then all of a sudden, they become obsessed with this topic of transition. They believe they had always been obsessed with this topic of transition, even though everyone who knows them said, No, this is something that didn't matter to you before. And they believe that they Will kill themselves if they don't transition.
Like suicide becomes a major part of their identity during this pre transition period. And when I hear about this as like a cultural package, especially in the context of somebody who's really [00:18:00] interested in cult psychology and studying cults, this actually sounds very compelling. Like it's a compelling mechanism for delivering an ideological package.
And I, and I say this because, If this is a memetic sense of spreading, this should be as concerning to actual trans people as it should be to everyone else. Because it leads to these individuals who are joining what is essentially an extremist cult beginning to represent the mainstream trans movement because now these individuals who are going to be much more ideological prime, like a normal trans person, when I say normal trans person, like an actually trans person, just wants to live their life as the other gender.
These individuals aren't like that. They just want to preach the cult message. Like once they join, all they care about is all of the things that differentiate the cult from the mainstream cultural group. How do you, like, like if this does exist as a cultural subset, which I'm beginning to see evidence, especially when I look at this extreme, like, Oh my God, if I don't do this as well, I can think about, I'm going to kill myself.[00:19:00]
It's actually really common was in cults in terms of convincing someone about this existential issue where they need to undergo something. Like within cults, classically, it's giving up all your money, but basically it's a permanent change that you can't easily come back from, and that permanently indebts you to
Simone Collins: the cult.
Well, and what scares me about it, and, and from a cult standpoint, and from any, you know, standpoint is typically once the, the family and friends of a person hears about this, it's too late. You know, when they come to you and they're like, I'm going to join this cult or I have to like change my gender.
Malcolm Collins: That's what most cults do is, is the key to cult conversion techniques. And I understand, I don't think this is like an intentionally created cult. It's like an accidentally evolved cult. I think trans people were real. And then an iteration of the trans movement that was very proselytized, like a little bit proselytized a lot.
The iterations of it. found out how to use these cult tactics accidentally ended up spreading faster than other iterations of it. [00:20:00] And so essentially you got this branch off of what was the real trans LGBT community, which follows these cult patterns. And one cult pattern is to convince an individual that anyone who doesn't affirm you joining the cult is abusive.
And therefore you should cut ties with those individuals. Especially your core care network. So for many of these individuals, this was their family. This was their, their friend group. It tells you, or your, your, your birth culture, right? Like if you're trying to join a new cultural group, what they need to do, they need to convince you that your birth cultural is antagonistic to you and that your family, your parents, your closest support network is antagonistic to you.
This is how you build dependency on the cult. And so they, they push this ideology on individuals where if a parent in any way says. I don't know, or I don't remember you always having this gender questioning. Like, maybe we should think about this. Maybe we should talk to third parties about this.
Those individuals are now the height [00:21:00] of abuse. Yeah. And they then begin to work in what a lot of people don't know is how easy it is to form memories that aren't real memories. Like, like, implanted memories are actually very easy in, in psychology, it's like one of the easiest things to implant memories in someone.
If you have a group that's affirming a particular memory, they'll ask, like, did your parents ever abuse you? And, first, you say they abused you and not affirming you. But then, if you remember vague ideas that maybe there was, like, actual physical or textual abuse.
Then when you mentioned the textual abuse, they begin to say, yes, that definitely happened to you. And because you get this affirmation for talking about this and they can begin to work its way into your consciousness and you believe it actually happened. And then you push this on parents who might've otherwise been totally normal parents who were just concerned about your wellbeing.
No, this is actually a very common strategy and cults these days, , implanted memories of textual abuse that didn't happen. , by your parents because it [00:22:00] separates you from your support network, which is obviously a thing of immense value to a cult, because then you see the Colt as your core support network and you. , it's, it's much harder for the people who would otherwise have the most interest in pulling you out of the cult to do so. As to why these sorts of behaviors begin to evolve within the modern trans movement. It's simply because it did not anything about trans individuals specifically it's simply because it was a part of society that you weren't allowed to criticize it whenever you have a part of society that you're not allowed to criticize.
That's a perfect area for Colts to begin to arise. , because behavior that would otherwise get called out is not getting called out.
Malcolm Collins: And now there's nothing the parent can do because anything the parent tries to do to separate you from the cult. drive you further to the cult and further away from them.
Simone Collins: So, okay. What I really want to get to have this discussion, which I think is so important is, you know, a lot of parents are just, like I'm saying, focused on the wrong thing, like bathrooms.
Oh my gosh, this is a big problem. [00:23:00] What should parents actually be doing to prepare annotate things for their children and essentially prevent their children from making an irreversible decision. Assuming that they're not actually really trans, which that's what our concern is. If you have a kid who's like legit trans, they're legit trans.
But I think a lot of people obviously are transitioning for the wrong reasons. So what, what are we going to do? What would you encourage other
Malcolm Collins: people to think about? I think that the biggest mistake that parents make is they don't understand that this is an alternate. Cultural framework and alternate religion, this thing that is sort of splintered from the real trans movement and has become a cult, basically and keep in mind, one of the groups that suffers most from this cult is the real trans movement because they dissent from this, that they're like What you're doing with kids is kind of problematic and they're like banned you're off of every network How dare you question what we're doing with kids?
Anyway so They will be like when I was a kid my culture this Christian [00:24:00] Jewish, whatever culture right Muslim culture It worked for me. It seemed sane to me, right? But what they don't realize is they were in an environment where the majority of people affirmed that culture or didn't question that culture Their kids, who have their genetics, are now in cultures where the majority of people see that, for example, conservative Christian culture, as strangely as they would see a trans individual.
Like, they're like, oh, you're of a weird cultural subset. Your kid has to go, if you're like a conservative Christian kid, or a conservative Mormon kid, in many environments today, they are seen as weird.
And if what kept you was in your culture was a normalization was the fact that people didn't constantly question it, when you just say, Oh, well, of course, Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies. So I believe in Jesus. And that doesn't hold for this generation because they're going to actually be questioned on that.
And from [00:25:00] an external perspective, he didn't really affirm them that well. To word this another way, I love real crime and mysteries today. Have I heard about a, a, a, a group of friends who are like, yeah, our friend died. And then after he died, I swear to God, he like came and talked to me afterwards. And everyone, almost everyone in this extended group of friends, we feel like we've engaged with him afterwards.
And. And then you, and he disappeared from his grave, when we then went to check his grave. I'd be like, wow, cool, like, cryptid story, bro. Like, it'd be interesting to me, but I wouldn't immediately think, oh, that's definitely God. That is God right there. That is, there is no other explanation for that than the, that individual is the single most powerful entity in all of existence.
And so given that that's the case, that you are relying on these defenses that worked when everyone affirmed them, you don't realize how [00:26:00] hostile our current environment is. And so when you send kids into that, and there are alternate frameworks out there that are providing solutions for their immediate problems, i.
e. social validation and comfort with a changing body. The, the Christian framework, the Jewish framework, the Muslim framework does not do a good job of dealing with this teenage change period, right? Which is when people most frequently deconvert. Of course they are going to be susceptible. The urban monoculture is one thing, but these extremists cults that evolved out of it.
And the way that you fight against them is either by fortifying your traditions, i. e. working to make them more resistant to modern science, everything like that. And that is not through telling a kid, if you deviate from any of this, I'm going to, like, be like, my kid knows better than to deviate from my version of Christianity.
Because then what you're just saying is, if your kid didn't believe what you believed, he knew not to tell you. And so that makes them even more [00:27:00] vulnerable to external ideological frameworks,
The same is also true for telling your kids something like trans people are evil and malevolent, and some people will be saying that in the comments, oh, how dare you humanize trans people in this Eve, you teach your kids that trans people are evil. Then when they meet a trans person who is not evil, Or at least. Not obviously evil and seems to care about them.
And it seems to be a human being just like them. Then all of the things you have taught them about trans people become immediately invalidated in their eyes. And you have lost any defense.
When you treat a group that you are trying to warn your kids against as truly evil.
You have created an intense level of susceptibility in them to conversion by that group.
Malcolm Collins: but this is also why us like many people are like, why don't you just go to one of the traditional cultures? It's because they are optimized for pre industrial time periods, not just pre internet, pre AI, pre modern urban [00:28:00] monocultural time periods, and they do not defend against it.
Well, if I look at the data and so Yes, it makes sense for me to try to create a system that is very synthesizes whiz or works alongside modern science so that when these individuals challenge my kids, they look like the anti science cult because these kids are able to look at the studies on puberty blockers.
And be like, this is what the actual data says on puberty blockers. Do you know this? And then this community treats them like a heretic because that's the way all extremist cults do. If there is information that damages the cult's ability to convert people, they will treat anyone who talks about that information.
Like they are an absolute heretic. They are a demon incarnate, right? Like, and, and try to suppress that information when the individual is taking actual. You know, peer reviewed studies and, and, and well conducted studies and being like this is what they say, like rapid IQ decline, stuff like that from [00:29:00] this, this sort of you know, puberty blockers, et cetera, never experiencing an orgasm and they attack them for that.
That will then reaffirm their traditional beliefs, but you need to engage with these ideas before they reach these communities. If you are not teaching your kids, like, real sex ed and sex ed includes about the trans community, not just that they're, like, this evil other, that there is a real trans community, and then there's, like, this weird cult that will immediately try to start preaching to them they need to be aware of that, because this, this group controls our school system.
It controls the way if you send them, the worst thing you can do is if a kid does this is send them to a psychologist because what the cult has learned is that if they tell kids just say that you're going to commit suicide, if this doesn't happen, then they can bend the psychologist industry around them because the psychologist industry suicide is like a hot word and it basically means you have to do whatever I'm saying.
Like you have to affirm whatever I'm saying. Like if I say I'm going to commit suicide. And it's the same as the school system. You look at a state like New Jersey, if I send my kid to school in New Jersey and they Approached by these [00:30:00] individuals and they begin on campus, identifying as a different gender, come up with a different name, you know, like a, that's the way cults don't really do, they create a new name for you so it really works, these cult ideologies have borrowed real trans identity that one, It has a legal duty to not tell me as a parent this has happened.
If I, as a parent, find out, they have to use the school's lawyer, right? Like, if I say I'm actually not okay with the kid going by a different name at school they then have to use the school's lawyer to fight you. Like, it's a mandate. That's, that's how extreme this is. And it makes sense that it is because it's the cultural default right now and people could be fired for fighting it.
So there's not really any reason to fight it. And they believe they're doing good. I mean, they believe that everyone who thinks that they identify as this actually is like a real trans person. And instead, they don't see them as actually one of the most. threatening thing [00:31:00] to real trans person people in society today, because these individuals, when you join the cult, you now need to attack every real trans person who expresses any sort of ideological diversity.
Which means that for real trans people, now they can only have one political opinion. One really sad.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Because I mean, a lot of people legitimately and, and less optimally transition to. Have a sense of belonging to, because they feel like, you know, this is what fixes the feeling that I had that made me feel so out of place.
And then to only be able to continue belonging, if you are only following this very narrow line just seems torturous. But one thing that I I'm thinking about a lot for our kids is friend network. I mean, I think a lot of this blindsides parents because they don't realize that. Online or at school or elsewhere, their kids are hanging out with, with other people who are [00:32:00] coming to this conclusion.
And these are good faith people. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying like, I think this is a clear pathway. And I think it's critical, more carefully curating your kids, friends groups and making sure that they have a strong and very supportive network of friends who will be there for them and help them navigate through Just how awful adolescence is, especially is really important.
And a lot of the parents that we've known personally, who've had kids transitioning in ways that seem really suboptimal. But also like through interviews that we've seen, it seems like really common characteristics are more isolated kids. Often there's a divorce at play and, and that is even scary too, because in many cases I've heard just, there's one parent who's really supportive of a transition and another who is either unaware.
Or not supportive, and the parent who is supportive is using that as a means of like, getting the kid on their side. And you know, I'm the cool one, I'm the supportive one. And then the other parent gets [00:33:00] alienated, so then they're used as political tools. But yeah, it does seem to me, like, parents being Wait, you talk about this happening
Malcolm Collins: to like, a two year old?
Simone Collins: Yeah, at one point, yeah, no a parent of a really, really a mother of a really, really young child started addressing them like a girl, they were a natal male and, and saying that, you know, like, they're, they're trans and I mean, like parents can be, of course,
Malcolm Collins: going through a divorce to win a custody case.
Yeah. Yeah. So they affirmed their gender and the other parent
Simone Collins: didn't. Yeah, I mean, I, I have, it's been a while since I, I saw this story, so I'll look it
Malcolm Collins: up in editing if it's real, but if it is real, that's horrifying
 so the story does appear to be real or at least real as reported by the father. , a man named Dennis Hannon.
In the story. , his ex wife began to transition their son at the age of three beginning to dress him in all women's clothes at the age of three. , and the sun was never diagnosed with gender dysphoria, [00:34:00] however, She did start him on puberty blockers at the age of nine. Now, anyone who knows a three-year-old or nine-year-old kid knows they don't even have a concept. My kids might have a four year old right now.
, he does not understand gender at all. He cannot get gendered pronouns, right. He cannot consistently tell a girl from a boy. , and we don't really push them on it because I don't think it's that important. I think it's a weird thing that society over focuses on, but the point I'm making is a three-year-old.
It definitely does not have a sense of whether or not they are a boy.
or a girl yet. If this story as reported is true, this son absolutely did not make these decisions for himself. And that's why I'm not. , I guess I mis-gendering him because I, I, this would be an instance where I'd say, yeah, this individual is not. actually a trans person. This is someone who was separated from all of their other support networks. Raised in a cult and basically told by the only person they had left, that they will only receive love and affirmation if they [00:35:00] transition. And it seems pretty obvious that that's what's happened. If the mom was already dressing them in all women's clothing. At the age of three and put them on puberty blockers by the age of nine. And as a trans person, If you want your community to ever be accepted. If you want your community to be accepted by the mainstream political body of this country. You need to be attacking these people before they enter the right wing media, you need to be attacking them louder and more vociferously than anyone on the right. Because no same thinking person is going to support a movement that is doing stuff like this to children.
Malcolm Collins: and keep in mind, you know, if you divorce someone, this is why it's so critical to not marry someone you want to divorce.
How vindictive they can be along these lines, because it's like an instant win. You side with this dominant cultural group, you win your kids, and you win the income, the additional income that that provides you. And another thing I noticed, a lot of people who are outsiders, they're like, why would [00:36:00] a kid do this?
Don't they understand how, you know a lot of people look when they, when they transition like this. And it's because that's not the way they're contextualizing transition. They're contextualizing transition around two things. One is online celebrities who have transitioned, but use a lot of editing to look very, very passing, even when they do not actually look passing in real life.
Dylan Mulvaney is a great example of this. ContraPoint is also a great example of this. These individuals don't really look passing if you see them outside of the completely dolled up context of extra makeup, extra lighting, any additional editing, because they're in this environment. And so they Well, this is a pretty
Simone Collins: universal phenomenon.
A lot of aspirational figures of any type. And this is like, whether you're a super, like masculine weightlifter guy online, or whether you're a super sexualized like model, female model online. Like there's a lot of Photoshopping that like makes everyone think that. [00:37:00] Some unattainable reality is actually attainable if
Malcolm Collins: they do the right thing.
Nobody really passes, except for East Asian, well, Asian young men or young women after they transition. That's the one group where I really see passing. But keep in mind that they don't pass forever. Like as they get older, this ability to pass typically degrades after about 20 years. It's like a tattoo or something like that.
You know, it, it, it degrades pretty quickly. But the other thing here is that they are defining what they think they will be like trans. And you see this within the trans community, off of anime characters, what they are actually attempting to transition into is an online avatar as represented by an anime girl, which is something that they can never become.
And this is actually, I find to be the core difference between the trans cult and the real trans movement. Do they identify with anime avatars? Or do they [00:38:00] identify with however they actually look?
Simone Collins: This is so funny because one of the reasons why I became anorexic was, like, primarily, like, the media I consumed was anime and manga.
And I was constantly looking at these, like, characters that were obviously very skinny and who did not have western bodies. And it made me hate my body even more. So that is
Malcolm Collins: interesting for me. Well, talk about it. You couldn't find any, like, bras that fit you in Japan, for example. Yeah,
Simone Collins: well, nothing, I mean, nothing, actually a lot of clothes took me in Japan, but yeah, like, but, you know, I was, I was aspiring to a morphology that couldn't, I could not achieve, period in my, in my body dysmorphia, and I, it's interesting that you point that out, that like, Anime girls are a common denominator, a common villain behind
Malcolm Collins: all this.
No, he's not a villain, and I think people overly may accuse Anime,
Simone Collins: you know I'm not accusing anime girls. I'm sorry, Malcolm, excuse me.
Malcolm Collins: We love anime. Transformation is a common theme within anime. No,
Simone Collins: I'm not Transformation has nothing to do with [00:39:00] this, it's just that they're pretty, and they're
Malcolm Collins: cool.
No, I think you're missing the point here. I think that that they use completely fictionalized iterations of themselves within environments where that is normal. And, and in online environments today, and this is something that the previous generation didn't have to deal with. They don't realize the threat of this.
They don't need to actually pass in the same way that trans people in the past needed to pass. Their voice needs to pass and their character needs to pass. You know, whether you're using AI filters or, or anime filters and stuff like that, because they are. Fighting for status hierarchy. They are fighting for approval as any human would, right?
Like that's what we all do. The problem is, is this creates unrealistic expectations around what happens after transition and overly rosy expectations around what happens after transition. So that individuals go into transition, expecting things that just aren't. [00:40:00] Likely not going to happen. And it's a problem when this is oversold.
Because when you are a guy and you are constantly denigrated by society.
Simone Collins: Oh yeah. And when you're a guy and you hit puberty, I think. Hold on. I just want to emphasize that when you're a guy and you hit puberty, it's very different from women. Like I think women are more likely to feel a lot of body dysmorphia and a lot of like, really like big discomforts with what their body's doing.
Whereas like men, I feel like one thing that's under discussed when a man hits puberty is that, Oh, guess what? The world is going to screw you over now. Everything's going to be harder. all the standards for you are harder. Everything's more competitive. You're, you're kind of treated by society as disposable.
You do not get any special treatment. Why would you not want to transition in the face of that?
Malcolm Collins: I mean, really? Well, yeah. And I think that this is something that people don't talk about because they're afraid of talking about it. Right. With, within conservative circles, this idea that as a guy, you might have any sort of gender questions as you're going through puberty.
Is like, you don't talk about that because it lowers your [00:41:00] status within conservative circles. But I'd say gender dysmorphia is actually very normal for men as they go through puberty. The idea of wouldn't it all be so much easier if I was just the other
Simone Collins: gender? And wouldn't, I mean, honestly though, women have
Malcolm Collins: it easier.
And men have the ability to emulate. a female mindset. You're like, Oh, wouldn't it be easier if I was taking on this other role within sexual interactions? And then can I use that? What people don't realize is that while there are real trans people who have these parts of themselves, okay, that are just loud and screaming at them constantly without interacting, without being elevated by an outside group.
Right. These parts of you can be elevated in almost any individual. Male or female if your social group is affirming them, but the problem is is that they can then come to dominate you And they can come to dominate you in a [00:42:00] way that hurts you that wouldn't have hurt you had you not engaged with it In the same way that something like cocaine or heroin like yeah, okay Once you do that for the first few times then yes, it does really make you feel better And yes, it does become a part of your life But if you had just known the first First time somebody dropped this on you to say, no, thank you.
I'm not engaging with this peer group anymore. I see that if I do continue to engage with this peer group, it will cause long term damage. You kids need to learn that, but the only way. To convince them of that, right, is to have an alternate ideology or an alternate world framework that contrasts with the urban monoculture, because this is, like the priest class, the highest caste of the urban monoculture.
And so If you don't have an alternate framework that is actually compelling against that and people are like, why do you work so hard to create like your own religion for your family? That seems insane. And it was like, because I had seen what happens to the little Protestants and the little Catholics who go [00:43:00] to school without any alteration.
Well, but
Simone Collins: hold on. So yeah, like, I was going to say a lot of parents who. Might hear this would just think, well, okay, great. Like I am, you know, our family, we're devout Catholics. We're devout Protestants. We're devout Baptists. We're devout Muslims. Like, well, wait, are Muslims people who practice Islam or is that like an ethnicity?
Malcolm Collins: They need to take the criticisms and the, the, the apologetics against their religion seriously and, and not be like, well, I never questioned it for X reason. The things that caused you to question a cultural system when you were in your teens, if you're presented with it. regularly and competently by a majority cultural group that is opposed to you are going to be very different from the things that cause you to question as an adult.
And a lot of them default to the answers that earn them credit within their social hierarchies as adults that are majority that [00:44:00] religion or majority that cultural system. Hold
Simone Collins: on. I don't know if you answered my question. Like a lot of people think that their religious culture is strong and therefore their kids won't be.
Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah. And what I'm saying is, how do I know your religious culture isn't strong? Is it traditional evangelical Protestantism? Is it traditional Catholicism? Is it traditional Islam? If it's traditional, then it is not strong. Those are the cultures being molested.
I would note here that I have seen traditional cultures work when the only people your kids interact with. Up until they're around the age of 21. Are other people from your cultural group, but even then, you know, I've seen people go wildly off the rails when they come from traditional cultures, because they just don't have good defenses. Do these more modern, , antagonistic memetic sets.
And this actually is something we might do a full episode on in the future.
But it's very interesting when I look at the religions that are hit by declining fertility rates, [00:45:00] typically the age of the religious tradition correlates to how severely it's going to be hit by declining fertility rates with very old religious systems like Hinduism and Buddhism, having very, very low fertility rates or within the. Christian traditions. You know, Catholicism and Orthodox having fairly low fertility rates. , while Protestants have middling fertility rates and Mormons, while they're still falling, have higher fertility rates and Amish have higher fertility rates. , with Amish, actually being a very young tradition for people who don't know that they're only like 200 years old, 300 years old.
Simone Collins: Okay. So basically the, the only way that you know, that you've built a strong culture that will actually.
Prevent your kid from succumbing to essentially like an incorrect transitioning as a result of just, you know, body dysmorphia, general body dysmorphia. That's not actually very
Malcolm Collins: normal during period
Simone Collins: routine. Yeah. [00:46:00] So like, if, if you don't have, if you have a traditional culture. You are not protected and what you need to do to protect yourself is in some very carefully curate your kids friends groups and make sure they have a very good emotional support network to broker them through puberty in a way that won't lead them in directions that you think will be very damaging to make sure that they understand from the get go that when people say that this is the easy answer, it's not.
And here are the reasons why. Right. And what, what else would you advise?
Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I think engaging with, so historically you didn't need to understand the arguments against Christianity when you're in majority Christian communities. You didn't need to understand if you engage with these attacks against your cultural system as if you are just engaging them to argue against them, you won't fully appreciate them.
You need to engage with them as [00:47:00] if you believe them, as if you were persuaded by them. Attempt to steel man them, not straw man them. Because if you don't, then you will not understand the impact they have on your children. Cultural systems that survive by simply isolating themselves will not survive. The, the, the stressors that you are undergoing in modern civilization are very different than they are historically.
And then in addition, I say there's another, there's a group of people who listen to this and say, but I'm just purely secular. Well, you have to understand, being secular may as well be in a cult today, if what you're listening to is the research. Because the psychologists, the people who run your, your schools, they don't listen to the research anymore.
They don't listen to data anymore. They listen to cultural extremist viewpoints and they're increasingly taking over the institutions that output the research. So secularity is no longer an option. Secularity is an extremist cult and being an extremist cult, [00:48:00] you need to find out how to defend your kids around that, but also how to teach your kids to hide it, you know, many religious systems.
And this is something I often see when people teach their kids just secularity, secularity. The kids go out and they just repeat the studies to these groups and they don't realize that that's what gets them crucified. You need to teach your kids to not engage with the groups, but also hide from them their real perspectives.
Because if they don't, they will get crucified, they won't get into college, they can even get arrested.
Simone Collins: Right. So if you as conservative views, teach them how to code switch at school to appear progressive so that they don't become ostracized and hated and therefore find themselves deeply unhappy in school.
Right?
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You, they need to learn to code switch. Just appearing conservative all the time doesn't work anymore. It needs to be like our society is controlled by a cult. How do I interact with that cult in a way that doesn't end up with me getting crucified. Because that's the [00:49:00] basic reality of kids growing up today.
They are in a society that's controlled by an aggressive cult that wants to stamp out anyone who shows immunity to its mimetic subset.
Simone Collins: I love that. So the, the gist to or the, the answer to parents who are like really deeply concerned about bathrooms in their schools is don't worry about the bathrooms, make sure your kid has great friends that you trust and respect.
Talk with them in a sober minded and respectful fashion about what actually is happening culturally and what may tempt them to do things that could be really damaging to them over the long term. And don't straw man it, steel man it, and then third. Teach your child how to act progressive in school environments so that they can thrive and be socially accepted.
And probably also thrive in the modern professional world if that's where they want to go. Very
Malcolm Collins: interesting. You'll man the science here. These individuals who do not teach their kids about like, if you teach your kids about LGBT [00:50:00] culture and you are doing that in a way that demonizes that culture.
You are dooming your children. You need to treat it with respect as other humans, as if it was just another religious subsect, the same way that, you know, Jews and, and, and that affirms that they may have attraction models or stuff like that, that are different from those that are approved within your culture, because people are changing.
We know this from the tide studies. These, these arousal patterns are much more common in the younger generation. So you need to not be overly antagonistic towards them, but find out how to make them work within your cultural system. Right? A kid coming to you and saying, I think I'm a, like a man, you have a male child.
And they're like, I think I'm attracted to men. You, if, if your default response to that is, then I reject you. You've lost. You've lost. You've just lost. If you say, well, love the sinner but hate the sin, no, [00:51:00] that doesn't work anymore. You need to find realistic ways of engaging with this, and you need to educate them before they hear about all of this from individuals who want to use it to drive a wedge between them and their birth culture to create a cult.
And in terms
Simone Collins: of what not to do don't shelter your child, do not denigrate this, this other culture or the concept of becoming trans or anything else. Like, and honestly, like another big instinct that teenagers feel is rebellion. If you basically say. Here's what you can do to make me absolutely furious.
Guess what? You're setting yourself up for some trouble. Right. So, we're going to have to be careful.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And understand that this isn't like things in the past, you know, like I was a hardcore, like goth punk scene kid, you know, Simone underwent her own cultural rebellion. [00:52:00] This is if there was a. A cultural subset for teens that once you joined, you couldn't leave.
Simone Collins: Yeah. So make sure, you know, any rebellion that you do drive your kids to is one that does not lead to permanent. Life changes that they cannot reverse. Yeah we'll see how things evolve as our kids reach that scary adolescent phase and I'm excited to see
Malcolm Collins: how it plays out. And final thing I suggest is when people are like, why do you do these track videos?
Why do you do this? We are religious stuff. We are trying to create a cultural subset that's resistant. To these sorts of memetic self replicants and or memetic prions, whatever you want to call it. And. We want to create one that can be used by people within the Abrahamic faith traditions as sort of a backup religion for their kids and the family that were like Judaism, the backup religion for our kids as the approved alternative to the urban monoculture.
Because if you are only selling them your own culture, you, you, you, you, you've created an incredibly weak [00:53:00] circumstance. Well, the alternative to your culture is the urban monoculture.
Simone Collins: I like it. And I like you. I love
Malcolm Collins: you.
Simone Collins: God, I'm so excited. Um, I just spoke with a journalist, um, as a politician running for office or whatever, the attempted politician, and at the end of the call, he said, wow, you know, I've had a lot of these interviews because his whole thing is covering state policy in Pennsylvania. Um, and this, this felt like a real conversation.
This was really unique. And I'm like thinking, what are your calls like with the other people running for office? Is it like, are they, are they talking to you in binary code? Is it just like, no,
Malcolm Collins: I think they're talking like bureaucrats. I mean, you've seen these people, right? They're just like, these are my point.
And they're afraid of negative stuff coming back to hit them.
Simone Collins: Oh yeah, I did. He did say that right after I was like, by the way. [00:54:00] If you want to just eviscerate me, go for it. Like, negative coverage is welcome. Do not feel guilty. Um, but yeah, like, wow, that's interesting. Maybe, or maybe they are actually robots.
He's a robot! He has no feeling! He can't feel anything!
 They're just robots, Morty. It's okay to shoot them, they're robots.
I love you, Shadow! Glenn's bleeding to death! Someone call his wife and children! They're not robots, Rick! It's a figure of speech, Morty. They're bureaucrats. I don't respect them.
Malcolm Collins: But it's true, I mean You know, who, who minds you have to shoot a few bureaucrats to get out of a building. Well, I'm actually going to use this at the end of a different video because it doesn't really go with this topic.
I'm talking
Simone Collins: to you, Malcolm. I, we haven't started recording. Well, no, we have started recording it because I don't want to forget.
Malcolm Collins: Uh, well, I love that. Um, it, what, what local journal was it for? Oh
Simone Collins: God, I don't remember.
Malcolm Collins: Well, [00:55:00] one day the age of Trump will be over and then there will be, uh, who knows what happens next with the conservative party and maybe you could become a
Simone Collins: leading . And then we will broker in the age of Kanye. Although what we really need, we don't need the age of Kanye. We need the age of Dwayne the Rock Johnson.
Um, but. I just don't know if that's gonna happen. You know, like,
Malcolm Collins: in some, like, progressive y documents, from, like, they actually talk about, like, the age of Aquarius? Are you? No. No. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was important to, like, the, the, Theosophical Society, which has, like, an outsized impact and a lot of, uh, progressive policy that people are
Simone Collins: looking for.
I, I would love if, like, conservatives made conspiracy theories around that instead of the Great Reset, where they were like, you gotta watch out. The age of Aquarius is what they're trying to broker in now.
Malcolm Collins: You're not listening to the right conspiracy theorists. That's your problem, Simone. It is. [00:56:00] Yeah,
Simone Collins: I guess it is.
Sorry,
This inbuilt was actually recorded before one of our track videos. And in that very video, somebody posted something about the age of Aquarius and Simone was so excited to show me afterwards and she's like, oh, we should've left it in. We should have left it in. And then I was like, yeah, but then you wouldn't know that it was a coincidence that people are still on about that conspiracy theory. Or, I don't know, hippie theory.
Malcolm Collins: I was playing into our connection. Also, John's replacing the, uh, thing downstairs right
Simone Collins: now. Oh my god, yay!
Malcolm Collins: Amazing! So, yay. All right. I'm about to get started, Simone. So, I hope you are ready.
Is A Cult Using the Trans Movement for Cover?